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Intel Haswell "hotter and slower than expected"

Intel Haswell

By Mike Jennings

Posted on 5 Jun 2013 at 08:00

Retail versions of Intel Haswell processors are hotter and more power-hungry than pre-production chips, and can’t be overclocked to the same speeds, British PC manufacturers have told PC Pro.

Four companies have told us that systems built using retail versions of Haswell chips haven't been able to match the speeds seen on pre-production models, which are given to manufacturers for testing before the official launch. All four PC makers spoke to PC Pro on condition of anonymity.

One company said that it had overclocked pre-production chips from 3.5GHz to 4.7GHz or 4.8GHz with ease, but that "40 or 50" retail chips had been impossible to overclock beyond 4.2GHz because of the high voltages and unsafe temperatures involved.

A spokesperson for a second firm told us that "PCs based on pre-production [speeds] of 4.5GHz have had to be dropped to 4.3GHz" because of a lack of stability in retail parts, while another reported that "there is a big difference in the overclocking potential between early Haswell samples and retail [chips]".

This third manufacturer confirmed that it won’t be selling any systems at speeds higher than 4.4GHz because it found that "very few processors would reliably overclock any further than this" after an "extensive internal investigation with Intel".

An Intel spokesperson said that "the overclocking experience will vary from CPU to CPU, and from generation to generation, due to many different factors" and that "we cannot guarantee a specific frequency".

"We continue to add new and exciting overclocking capabilities and we expect enthusiasts to be pleased with the unlocked 4th Gen Core processors."

Getting hot?

There are also concerns over the temperature of the retail processors. A fourth firm’s spokesperson said that employees who build PCs "have to frequently change chips" in order to find the best parts, and that "even at stock speeds, [retail chips] are running hotter than Ivy Bridge or Haswell samples". The firm said that retail chips are "around 15°C" hotter than pre-production samples.

A spokesman for the third company added that a Core i7-4770K overclocked to 4.6GHz was so unstable it "wouldn’t even load the operating system", and that systems that use the Core i5-4670K are restricted to only 4.2GHz because "voltage bumps... send temperatures sky high".

Intel sent PC Pro its standard overclocking disclaimer, which warns that the process can lead to "additional heat or other damage" and that "Intel has not tested, and does not warranty, the operation of the processor beyond its specifications".

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User comments

overclocks

if they run that much hotter than my 3570k then i presume i can overclock mine higher
wonder how my 4.5ghz 3570k compares to the newer model
running with its most stable overclock

By Emodan666 on 5 Jun 2013

Disappointing

Well I already waited an extra 3 months due to release delays. Now I have to wait another 2 months until the C2 stepping chipset revision is released. And now I find that the ASUS Maximus VI Extreme I had planned on getting is a waste of money due to these OC discoveries. All in all this CPU is turning out to be far less than hoped for. If my pc wasn't 7 years old and in desperate need of trashing Id be holding off upgrading indefinitely.

By jamesv1001 on 5 Jun 2013

and....

...This means nothing to the general consumer or business that simply wants a desktop. Is the 4770k faster than the 3770k? Yes.

Will overclockers find a way? Yes.

By rhythm on 5 Jun 2013

Intel is targetting the market, not 'geeks'

While I'm still a bit sceptical about many of Intel's claims for Haswell, I can't say I'm getting hot and bothered by problems with Over-clocking.

Only a relative handful of hardcore gamers and enthusiasts want PCs with this kind of over-clocking.
Intel has aimed Haswell squarely at portable devices, and it will stand or fall on its performance in Laptops and Tablets.

The key issues here (assuming decent performance) are heat output and power usage. Thermal design in smaller form-factor devices is critical, and under-clocking much more relevant than its opposite.

By wittgenfrog on 5 Jun 2013

and it means more than you realise...

"...This means nothing to the general consumer or business that simply wants a desktop".

Not true for two reasons:

1> A general consumer who does not intend overclocking has no reason to buy the 4770K. Better to buy the 4770 with Transactional Synchronization eXtensions (TSX). We are talking about overclocking and heat issues here on the 4770K.

2> "There are also concerns over the temperature of the retail processors".

This has the potential to shorten the lifespan of the chip, and mean more money spent on cooling. This also has a knock-on effect with reliabilty, which effects both general consumers and business.

"it won’t be selling any systems at speeds higher than 4.4GHz because it found that very few processors would reliably overclock any further than this".

If pc companies have stated they cant push the processors as hard, I tend to believe them. This means everything to the person the 4770K targets, ie the overclocker. I held off on Ivybridge due to the overheating issues, especially because it was a step backwards in that respect from Sandybridge. So to say it means nothing that Haswell overclocks worse than ivybridge, let alone sandybridge is absurd.

By jamesv1001 on 5 Jun 2013

i would rather the new high end K series chips didn't have integrated gpus
surely anybody spending money on a k series will be running a dedicated graphics card

seems like a waste of silicon and the extra cost attached

By Emodan666 on 5 Jun 2013

@Emodan66

I'm guessing that the K series is essentially identical, so using the same manufacturing process.

Making a version without the GPU I would guess would mean using a second manufacturing process and so increase costs.

By Grunthos on 5 Jun 2013

@grunthos

It's not a different manufacturing process, it's a different mask. Since yield is inversly proportional to die size squared a smaller simpler chip could be significantly cheaper.
Even the same die with the graphics disabled would allow more of the heat / power budget to be available for faster processor clock rate.
Power users simply don't need on chip graphics.

By milliganp on 5 Jun 2013

@Emodan66

"surely anybody spending money on a k series will be running a dedicated graphics card"

I bought a 2600K and find the integrated GPU is useful for video encoding (ie, QuickSync).

The internal GPU doesn't make much difference to cooling and overclocking, what *does* make a difference is the cheaper conductor under the heat spreader on Ivy Bridge and, from the sounds of it, Haswell.

I was lucky as my particular 2600K can go up to 5.0GHz on air, although at 5.2GHz you start to get BSoDs after a while. That said, the GPU (GeForce 670) is more of a bottleneck for most things than the CPU, so most of the time I leave it at stock settings.

By Retron on 6 Jun 2013

WRITTEN TO DISCOURAGE USING HASWELLS

This sort of reminds me of the windows 8 sucks sentiments flying around. Uninformed, poorly thought out etc. It's easy to be a parrot and repeat things, but if you think back loads of people said there was no reason to move to windows 7 on launch day and that they'd just stick with XP. I was one of them, and feel foolish now for thinking that. Of course on the first day, very few programs took advantage of 7, and little was known about it. But after 2 years, little by little, I kept seeing the advantages and they began to add up. Features for direct X, GUI perks and some new versions of programs that would only support windows 7. At this point, I wouldn't go back to XP.

People are acting that way about windows 8. You can tell because they nit pick on little things, like "OMG! I can't find the desktop! I"m terrified there is no desktop!" and BS like that. Easily remedied things. I now have a windows 8 lap top with touch etc. I was worried, but as soon as I used it, the desktop was ONE button away. Many things are helped by the touch screen and so on. The icons look (metro? look?) can be turned on and off. And as usual, I'm starting to see the fraidy cats always get the first say. The reason is because people respond to fear first....


On to Haswell and my new system. It's whistle blowers and scared people in the past that have taught me not to always run away from new CPU's. I knew full well I could return mine Amazon so I ordered it, even though articles like this warned about the heat and not being as fast etc. Well guess what? I've been rewarded for taking the plunge. First off when he says "slower than expected", that is just a relative term. In other words they can't easily reach up quite as high as those people had hoped. But the i7 4770k is, by design, already faster than the 3770k when it runs at the same clock speed! In other words, you need to over clock the 3770k just to reach the speed of the 4770k. Now, I don't mean the speed setting. I mean how many calculations or MIPS, or how much horse power the chips has. You know. What it can do!

So yes, the 3770k can OC further, BUT the Haswell doesn't need to OC that far just to beat out a 3770k. In fact, with just a mild OC, it's already faster than most of the 3770k's out there, and you won't need to go to extremes. Just look at the benchmarks between the two! You won't have to work as hard at it. Next, if you should happen to get lucky and get a cherry picked, or extra over clockable CPU, then that's just icing on the cake after the fact. But you won't need to reach 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 etc and very few can do that. But at 4.4 or 4.5 which many Haswell chips will do on AIR cooling, you will almost for sure be above the computational power of any 3770k that's pushed to it's limits and ready to burn up. Well, maybe not burn up, but very hot at the least.

I have a Dark Knight air cooler and got 4.2Ghz at 1 volt. I then got 4.4 Ghz at 1.03, which is pretty good. My temps were like 148 F or 64 C. Even if I got a slightly better CPU, I know, from reading, that many other over clockers are not far off from this on Hasewell. I certainly don't have the cream of the crop. I'm now tweaking it to get 4.5Ghz. I tried 1.04v core and it crashed. then 1.05, crash, Now at 1.09 (in bios, 1.10 in windows) and it's been running prime for hours. I'm getting temps like 159 160 F Or like 70 C. Hardly near the point of over kill. And remember that's during PRIME! In other words, in real life you don't sit there with all cores maxed up like in this torture test. In any program (app), game whatever, no matter how intensive they mostly will not come close to 100% usage. So that means in real life usage, a Haswell will likely never break 130F or 54 C. I know because I went through this with my previous i7 build. I tortured that CPU and had it really hot, but after I used it only to run games, or recording studio software, or paint programs etc, it never got hot. And the Haswell will be no different. It's more powerful, and it doesn't take that much work to get computational power out of it. Remember, speed or Mhz or Ghz doesn't always equal the same computational power! that said, the negative articles about Haswell are being worry warts. If you look around, you will keep finding other people like me that point out that the Haswell is more powerful. That said, I'd recommend it. Most will be good enough to get all the power you'll need, and at a decent temp.

By cpu2max99 on 14 Jul 2013

WRITTEN TO DISCOURAGE USING HASWELLS

This sort of reminds me of the windows 8 sucks sentiments flying around. Uninformed, poorly thought out etc. It's easy to be a parrot and repeat things, but if you think back loads of people said there was no reason to move to windows 7 on launch day and that they'd just stick with XP. I was one of them, and feel foolish now for thinking that. Of course on the first day, very few programs took advantage of 7, and little was known about it. But after 2 years, little by little, I kept seeing the advantages and they began to add up. Features for direct X, GUI perks and some new versions of programs that would only support windows 7. At this point, I wouldn't go back to XP.

People are acting that way about windows 8. You can tell because they nit pick on little things, like "OMG! I can't find the desktop! I"m terrified there is no desktop!" and BS like that. Easily remedied things. I now have a windows 8 lap top with touch etc. I was worried, but as soon as I used it, the desktop was ONE button away. Many things are helped by the touch screen and so on. The icons look (metro? look?) can be turned on and off. And as usual, I'm starting to see the fraidy cats always get the first say. The reason is because people respond to fear first....


On to Haswell and my new system. It's whistle blowers and scared people in the past that have taught me not to always run away from new CPU's. I knew full well I could return mine Amazon so I ordered it, even though articles like this warned about the heat and not being as fast etc. Well guess what? I've been rewarded for taking the plunge. First off when he says "slower than expected", that is just a relative term. In other words they can't easily reach up quite as high as those people had hoped. But the i7 4770k is, by design, already faster than the 3770k when it runs at the same clock speed! In other words, you need to over clock the 3770k just to reach the speed of the 4770k. Now, I don't mean the speed setting. I mean how many calculations or MIPS, or how much horse power the chips has. You know. What it can do!

So yes, the 3770k can OC further, BUT the Haswell doesn't need to OC that far just to beat out a 3770k. In fact, with just a mild OC, it's already faster than most of the 3770k's out there, and you won't need to go to extremes. Just look at the benchmarks between the two! You won't have to work as hard at it. Next, if you should happen to get lucky and get a cherry picked, or extra over clockable CPU, then that's just icing on the cake after the fact. But you won't need to reach 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 etc and very few can do that. But at 4.4 or 4.5 which many Haswell chips will do on AIR cooling, you will almost for sure be above the computational power of any 3770k that's pushed to it's limits and ready to burn up. Well, maybe not burn up, but very hot at the least.

I have a Dark Knight air cooler and got 4.2Ghz at 1 volt. I then got 4.4 Ghz at 1.03, which is pretty good. My temps were like 148 F or 64 C. Even if I got a slightly better CPU, I know, from reading, that many other over clockers are not far off from this on Hasewell. I certainly don't have the cream of the crop. I'm now tweaking it to get 4.5Ghz. I tried 1.04v core and it crashed. then 1.05, crash, Now at 1.09 (in bios, 1.10 in windows) and it's been running prime for hours. I'm getting temps like 159 160 F Or like 70 C. Hardly near the point of over kill. And remember that's during PRIME! In other words, in real life you don't sit there with all cores maxed up like in this torture test. In any program (app), game whatever, no matter how intensive they mostly will not come close to 100% usage. So that means in real life usage, a Haswell will likely never break 130F or 54 C. I know because I went through this with my previous i7 build. I tortured that CPU and had it really hot, but after I used it only to run games, or recording studio software, or paint programs etc, it never got hot. And the Haswell will be no different. It's more powerful, and it doesn't take that much work to get computational power out of it. Remember, speed or Mhz or Ghz doesn't always equal the same computational power! that said, the negative articles about Haswell are being worry warts. If you look around, you will keep finding other people like me that point out that the Haswell is more powerful. That said, I'd recommend it. Most will be good enough to get all the power you'll need, and at a decent temp.

By cpu2max99 on 14 Jul 2013

WRITTEN TO ENCOURAGE USING HASWELLS

OOPS, LOL. I meant that there are some negative points made here that are discouraging, BUT I AM TRYING TO ENCOURAGE USING HASWELLS. Just read my novel up there and it will be clear. I'm just excited because I just got a Haswell, and all the talk out there that is negative, is just talk, or mostly talk I will say. It's way better than it sounds. I love mine and I'm at 4.5Ghz. 4.4Ghz was super easy to get, and 4.5 just took a little more tweaking. Happy over clocking :-)

By cpu2max99 on 14 Jul 2013

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