Government to disconnect file-sharers from 2011

One sided arguments

I find the " 1 in 20" statement from Mandelson indicative of the Governments inability or even point blank refusal to listen to arguments other than from the music industry lobbyists. It is obvious to anyone who buys and listens to music that this does not mean 19 lost sales.

By HuwJones on 28 Oct 2009

One sided arguments

I find the " 1 in 20" statement from Mandelson indicative of the Governments inability or even point blank refusal to listen to arguments other than from the music industry lobbyists. It is obvious to anyone who buys and listens to music that this does not mean 19 lost sales.

By HuwJones on 28 Oct 2009

No one notice that Mandy's going for a job in the media industry when labour get booted out? Ah. Only me then.

By bubbles16 on 28 Oct 2009

They're all living in the past, unable to adapt to the way the net is changing commerce. Poor little Mandy.

By Grunthos on 28 Oct 2009

As the government is unable to regulate either the banks or itself, is there any need to worry? Whatever they do they will cock it up anyway.

By stokegabriel on 28 Oct 2009

Where to start?

This is wrong in so many ways, I'm not sure where to begin.
"Reduce 70% of illegal file-sharing" - how can they tell which files are illegal? How is this to be measured?
"one in 20 music tracks in the UK" - The 'study' that was used to come up with this figure has been shown to be speculative at best.
"an economy based on creativity" yes, but that's in the banking sector, not the music industry
"receive two notifications" -By post? To which address? Any time frame between warnings?
"opportunity to appeal" And how long will this take? Meantime, is the victim still disconnected and do they still need to pay for their year/18 month contract?
"share the costs, on the basis of a flat fee" So the ISP has to pay to lose a customer, or is this taken as part of their costs?
"European Parliament" Is this where people need to lodge there appeals?
I think I'll stop there, I doubt if Mandy will read this thread anyway, or take notice - especially if bubbles16 is right...

By greemble on 28 Oct 2009

Mandelson looking out for the creative industries

The plans Mandelson has unveiled are geared towards helping the creative industries continue to develop legal services which are attractive to everyone. This is what is important here, for the Film and Television industry, its helping people to be aware of legal services such as itunes, LoveFilms video-on-demand service and these business models continuing to evolve to meet people’s needs.
Mandelson has stated that measures would be proportionate, so that people are aware that their connection is at risk and are given the opportunity to stop. Those who don’t access unauthorised content online, will never be affected by these proposed measures on enforcement; so I guess it comes down to the value that we as a society place on the work produced.
I work with the Industry Trust for IP Awareness and know that this is affecting many of the 150,000+ people who are supported by and contribute to the film and TV industry in the UK.

Thanks,

Ollie

By IndustryTrust on 28 Oct 2009

Labour: F*ck off.

By aron311 on 28 Oct 2009

Another reason to see Labour gone

Like we needed any.

When a rich third party can buy government aid to enforce a "guilty until proven innocent" policy then everyone should worry.

Mandelson has (quite possibly literally) gotten into bed with the music industry and cannot be trusted.

iTunes is legal, but is also guilty of price-fixing. The music "industry" has done a lot to cling to its monopoly and frankly I'd rather see it gone. Without the self-entitled middlemen and their blood-drinking lawyers, the actual music artists can publish their music directly.

Unfair? Look at the recent cse of Edwyn Collins, who was ordered to take HIS OWN music off MySpace, even though he holds the Copyright and yet a number of distributors are still selling his tracks (iTunes included) even though they are not entitled to do so. He simply lacks the money to sue them. So WHERE is HIS protection? He can't afford any!
In a time when internet sales of music are boosting the marketplace (beyond what CDs used to sell), continuing to demonise a few teens who download (in the same way my generation taped the top 40) is absurd and needs quashing.

By cheysuli on 28 Oct 2009

Clean up the Music Industry First !

OK, file sharing is wrong, there is no doubt about that. I wouldn't even know where to start personally. But what I would say is how about cleaning up the music industry first, an industry where drug taking is almost positvely encouraged. So sort that issue out, and then start diconecting downloaders Mandy.....

By PCPROFAN on 28 Oct 2009

Why the legislation is needed

I cant speak for the music industry, but I work with Oli, who has posted above and through working with the Industry Trust for IP Awareness I have seen a new side to these issues as far as the film and tv industry is concerned.

Its only about 1 in 30 films which cover their costs at the box office. It's these films, that help provide re-investment into the industry and support the more unusual, diverse films to be able to get the funding to be made.

Unauthorised downloading affects this re-investment and the legislation should help with this.

The film and tv industry recognises the task it has here though and it continues to look at new models for online distribution as Oli mentions above. But the way that people consume music is very different to the way they consume film and TV.

People will download a song and listen to it again and again, so feel they are getting good value when they buy their download. Generally they only want to watch a film or TV show once – something that needs to be reflected in any film and TV business models that are going to offer best value to the consumer.

At the moment, the perceived value of a download is much less than buying a physical disc to keep and the low household penetration of high-speed broadband means the economics don’t yet add up to a viable model where digital and physical versions can be released on the same date.

The legislation which is being proposed will, in time help the industry to provide the opportunities for more choice for people online but its important that people realise why these are needed and that they understand the affect unauthorised downloading is having on people who work across all areas of the industry.

By Felicityc on 28 Oct 2009

Only 1 in 30 films cover their costs !!

If I only managed to achieve a 3% success rate in my job, I would be sacked.

By jkos99 on 28 Oct 2009

1 in 30 films cover their costs?? So the film industry must be massively overcharging the film buying public to pay for the other 29 unpopular offerings, not to mention keeping a huge percentage of it's workforce in a job.

I think most people would object to supporting an industry that obviously has little interest in spending it's money wisely

By pinero50 on 29 Oct 2009

His Master's Voice

Lord Mandy has done his master's bidding well, he will be suitable rewarded once he leaves public life.

A sinecure at JP Morgan, a position in the Carlyle Group? Oh the agony of choice!

By Lacrobat on 29 Oct 2009

Can we get a refund if a film is rubbish ??

I agree with the posters sentiments that 1 in 30 films are not good enough to draw sufficient sales to cover their cost of production. I rent DVD movies online and I send about 50% of them back half watched because they are so bad. Maybe the film industry should start offering consumers a refund if they watch a movie that is substandard and basically unfit for the purpose of entertainment.... ?

Now that would be nice and no one would need to download movies to "just to see" if they were any good.

By PCPROFAN on 29 Oct 2009

Wider picture

Will I get disconnected for downloading Korean programs which are only available through P2P?

I will be disconnected for watching programmes which will never be released to a wider audience and have no distribution rights associated with them....that makes sense!

By el_diablo_72 on 29 Oct 2009

Ollie and Felicity C thank you for acting as apologists for this grossly unfair, (potentially illegal under European Law) nay Draconian idiocy, inspired by the unfair and inaccurate figures supplied by your industries.

My father has worked in the film industry for many years and frankly, I have very little sympathy for it or your position. So your tunes do not play here.

This is a disgusting, ill-conceived piece of work; too much, too late. The Government and film/music industries should be very ashamed of themselves.

By Mr_Flynn on 29 Oct 2009

Silly

Stupid legislation which is in no way enforceable. Have they not heard of VPN services like hidemyass.com? I would like to see them detecting unauthorised file sharing then.

By tomh86 on 29 Oct 2009

What is an illegal download?

What are we buying when we purchase media? If my DVD of "Local Hero" let's say, is scratched, and I download a copy of it, is that wrong? Is it morally wrong? Is it an illegal download? What if it has been freely aired on TV? What if I have a VHS copy too? What if I have paid for a copy I can no longer use? (Videodisk [ahem]) What if my hdd dies and takes my legally downloaded / paid for content? Have I bought the "right to watch or listen to it", or just one copy, physical or digital? Am I allowed to back this up? Is the internet my cloud storage? Presumed guilt should never be the basis for law, and yet that seems to be the legacy of the last few administrations.

By beeblebroxIV on 29 Oct 2009

What is an illegal download?

What are we buying when we purchase media? If my DVD of "Local Hero" let's say, is scratched, and I download a copy of it, is that wrong? Is it morally wrong? Is it an illegal download? What if it has been freely aired on TV? What if I have a VHS copy too? What if I have paid for a copy I can no longer use? (Videodisk [ahem]) What if my hdd dies and takes my legally downloaded / paid for content? Have I bought the "right to watch or listen to it", or just one copy, physical or digital? Am I allowed to back this up? Is the internet my cloud storage? Presumed guilt should never be the basis for law, and yet that seems to be the legacy of the last few administrations.

By beeblebroxIV on 29 Oct 2009

Death to Mandelscum

oli and felicityc I think it's fairly obvious you're the same person either way f u c k off, actually don’t f u c k off until you’ve read this. The reason most films don't make money is because they are s h it. Hollywood no longer produces films, it produces product devoid of any originality as a result of risk aversion. Low budget films that aren’t squeezed out of the cinemas by the filth you are defending generally have to cough up around £250,000 to produce the prints required for cinema exhibition, not to mention marketing costs. So if like me, you are looking at producing a film for £50,000 which is quite doable, I have to find five times as much money to get it into the cinema, which means it has to make five times as much money at the box office to break even. Most film distributors do this as a loss leader to increase future DVD and TV sales.

But of course this argument isn’t about protecting the potential income of small film makers like me, rather the big studios who no longer have a secure market and captive audience.

What you should take back to your paymasters from this thread is what others have said, firstly this is in no way enforceable as a result of IP hiding and Secondly, the business models need to evolve faster and they need to address the problems of territories, I want to watch films that aren’t currently available in this country. Why should I ne denied just because some grubby sheister distributor doesn’t think it’s worth the financial risk.

I think rather than solve the problem, you’re going to exacerbate it and push it underground, making it ripe for exploitation and misuse. Another way the legislation could be used is to stop people like me saying something like lets hire a hitman to kill Mandelscum. Sorry for the long post.

By dodge1963 on 29 Oct 2009

Lying Government - what's new?

It isn't the filesharing issue that this Labour rabble are concerned with. It is the loss of tax/VAT revenue that they want to squander on other useless initiatives (e.g. identity cards....)

By jontym123 on 29 Oct 2009

Lying Government - what's new?

It isn't the filesharing issue that this Labour rabble are concerned with. It is the loss of tax/VAT revenue that they want to squander on other useless initiatives (e.g. identity cards....)

By jontym123 on 29 Oct 2009

Ridiculous

All the maths are wrong.

90% of the stuff people download for free to try out - wouldn't be bought.

All these assumptions that all downloaded albums, films, games, equal a loss of sale, is totally wrong.

Only a small amount of downloaded stuff equals a loss of sale. Mandelson is talking the same rubbish business people have been spouting for years.

The key to making people buy films, games and music, is to package it in enticing ways and charge a reasonable price, so that people feel they are getting value for money.

By kingstonlj on 29 Oct 2009

Does this include their own departments?

After all they have shared so many files by losing CDs and laptops!

By GrayH on 29 Oct 2009

Hooray for Mandy

Great, so folks will have to pay for fashion based crutch-thrutch music. Being the fat, old and ugly Doc Mustard, my recordings head straight for the mainstream gutter. Following this news I can now offer my songs for free and get some listeners which might lead to some paid gigs based on merit not nepotism. Bring it on. When Mandy was a kid I bet loads of his contemporaries made cassette copies from their mates' vinyl collections. Won't be too long before all humans are microchipped and treated accordingly.

By ibrowze on 29 Oct 2009

Mutiple users

What about if you share an internet connection.

A family of 5, 1 downloads and is penalised by disconnection. 4 do not download but are also disconnected as a result of the one.

First question is who do the 4 sue for unfair disconnection, the ISP, Mandelbum or the music industry. We might as well know now to save time in the future!

By delturner1 on 29 Oct 2009

Government is the shadow cast of big business over society

All,

For the people how have fallen asleep. Please remember what the wise men (Adam Smith & John Dewy) of history said about government. It has been from day one - ' Government is the shadow cast of big business over society'. Now get back to staring at the shadows on the cave walls.

Cheers

By kbeigan on 29 Oct 2009

Government is the shadow cast of big business over society

All,

For the people how have fallen asleep. Please remember what the wise men (Adam Smith & John Dewy) of history said about government. It has been from day one - ' Government is the shadow cast of big business over society'. Now get back to staring at the shadows on the cave walls.

Cheers

By kbeigan on 29 Oct 2009

Ok so who is going to pay?

Ok so who is going to pay if someone hack my wireless connection and start downloading? If I get disconnected and after the appeal I'm found not guilty is the music industry going to refound me?

By sayl1000 on 29 Oct 2009

The Sheep Project ...

Well I smiled as I read the thread. Now let's look at everything in prospective.
Lord (god knows who gave him that!) M is going to the music industry. Hot to boost your income is to take something with you as a gift and using parlimentary powers 'illegally'!
Next we look at smoking in public places, alcohol consumption all amongst adults. You know the Gestapo and KGB were never as harsh as the UK government. This not what they are supposed to do but instead we have MP's lining their pockets, draconian measures and suggestions to 'control'. The government relies on the 'sheep' instinct that everyone in the UK will follow whatever they say. The reality is that they are simply out of touch and the internet was founded on a hard to believe word - 'freedom'.
Michael

By photomanlondon on 29 Oct 2009

The UK just gets worse...

It's just this sort of cr@p that prompted my family and I to emigrate to Canada earlier this year.

Absolutely no bl@@dy plans to return, that's for sure.

No decent PC mag's out here though!

By PaulDGodden on 29 Oct 2009

The UK just gets worse...

It's just this sort of cr@p that prompted my family and I to emigrate to Canada earlier this year.

Absolutely no bl@@dy plans to return, that's for sure.

No decent PC mag's out here though!

By PaulDGodden on 29 Oct 2009

The UK just gets worse...

It's just this sort of cr@p that prompted my family and I to emigrate to Canada earlier this year.

Absolutely no bl@@dy plans to return, that's for sure.

No decent PC mag's out here though!

By PaulDGodden on 29 Oct 2009

Apologies

My apologies folks, I've just noticed the three posts above in my name. It appears that when I refreshed the page after posting, the post info' has been re-sent.

Honset, I din't really post three times!

I'm going to come off the page now use a decent browser...

By PaulDGodden on 29 Oct 2009

hey, Ollie and felicityc

given your job description, you can explain why we should not consider you a lying scumbag. Your industry has systematically destroyed its own credibility over the last decade by abusive anti-consumer behavior, and your industry's buying politicians to support an obsolete business model has made things worse.

We need music. We need artists. We DO NOT need the aggressive bunch of pandering parasites you represent.

Any politicians on your payroll need to be sacked.

By alizard on 29 Oct 2009

Mickey-Mouse U.K. government.

Here we have an overpaid (possibly fiddling his expenses)member of our self-perpetuating dictatorial government potificating to those who are in the real world. Ministers, M.P.s, pop-stars, football pl;ayers ansd all the other parasites can afford to pay inflated prices for their music, so do not need to download. The minister has also overlooked that many file-sharers do not download illegal music & films. Another examaple of knee-jerk reactions and why the U.K. is now bottom of the thrid world pile.

By pcdiver on 29 Oct 2009

So what about legit file-sharing?

As it happens I DO buy all my music, but as a gigging, composing musician I often need to pass on files of my work to other legitimately interested parties - for example, producers, fellow musicians and co-composers. I assume this brave new world will allow me to go about my proper business without threat or harrassment? How will my work be identified from an "illegal" share?

By derek369 on 29 Oct 2009

Musical Robbery.

Yes, downloading films and music you have not paid for is wrong, but there again the rip=off prices charged by the music and film industries for their very often poor quality wares is also wrong. You don't hear Mandelson hitting them to get them to reduce the cost of their wares do you. They would still make a reasonable profit if they reduced their prices by 75% which would make it non profitable to pirate their product and they would sell a lot more because more people could afford it.

By birdmaniw on 29 Oct 2009

The Times They Are A Changin'

One fact seems to have escaped the attention of the music industry, and the press. The way people listen to music has changed. It's no longer something that people actively do, it's an accompaniment to some other activity.

As a result music doesn't have the value that it had a generation ago. A CD is no longer worth £10 or more. The music industry needs to cut its selling prices by 90% and cut its production costs until that becomes a viable business model.

There's only so much that the industry can do to delay the impact of the laws of economics, which are every bit as unforgiving as the law of gravity.

By shrdlu on 29 Oct 2009

Englishman

Well I do agree with most of the posts here and maybe they are right about Mendelson (besides the job he is looking for)he is trying to turn us into easily coerced people who will do as they are told and not be bothering important people like him who once had integrity but have now lost it completely.
It is sad that Labour have sold out so completely, I wonder who I will vote for next time?
Certainly not this shower of criminals! Resign Resign Resign...

By JamesMaidment1 on 29 Oct 2009

So that's where our broadband tax money's going?

By qwertyqwerty87 on 31 Oct 2009