Mozilla massacres Microsoft's browser ballot proposal

Windows Update?

But Windows Vista and 7 don't launch the browser to update Windows... The argument would be valid if Microsoft were planning on relaunching XP.

To be honest, I think Mozilla have the least to worry about, with around 40% market share (depending on whose figures you believe)...

I've use Firefox since 2001, when it was Phoenix and still in alpha. I think that the ballot screen is a crazy idea anyway.

Those that want to change, will. Those that don't, won't. And those that haven't a clue will be even more confused...

By big_D on 19 Aug 2009

Sorry, but with the release of the operating system to the general public just around the corer when exactly do the Mozilla foundation think there is going to be time for this informal group to meet? As for rolling the browser (I assume this means the election screen) out worldwide does this mean that what they would like to see is a worldwide delay in shipping windows 7, or would they like to have the non-upgrade EU version go out to everyone without IE until a "better" solution is ready?

By Shuflie on 19 Aug 2009

Windows 7 is Microsoft's product, they should be able to put whatever they want on it like every other company in the world does, including Apple and Linux.

By a_byrne22 on 19 Aug 2009

So - in response to the EU, MS initially omit the browser altogether and get criticised. Some people support that omission saying a ballot will simply lead to accusations of unfair positioning.
MS respond to criticism of omission by introducing a ballot. And get criticised for unfair positioning. Well, I didn't tell you so but others did.

Frankly, it feels like Mozilla are just stirring brown stuff - having got to an excellent position through excellent software, they are now resorting to lawyers' tactics instead of letting their software do the talking.

In the blog, Mitchell says "As proposed, we expect to see many people who want other browsers get lost in the process before they actually succeed in making an alternative browser their main browsing tool." Frankly, anyone who cannot negotiate a download and install is utterly unlikely to understand there are other browsers, so I can't see any of them actually wanting other browsers in the first place. So it's a non-issue.

She also says "Most important, if IE presents itself to the user as part of an automatically triggered update process, it should close immediately after the update process completes. It should not use this Windows update process as an opportunity to ask to become the default browser." Yes - but given that I've _never_ seen IE come up as part of a Windows update, I fail totally to see how this is "Most important". It's a red-herring.

For goodness sake - I want Windows 7 and its benefits.

PS - Will Google's Chrome OS be issued with no browser or with a browser ballot?

By AdrianB on 19 Aug 2009

So - in response to the EU, MS initially omit the browser altogether and get criticised. Some people support that omission saying a ballot will simply lead to accusations of unfair positioning.
MS respond to criticism of omission by introducing a ballot. And get criticised for unfair positioning. Well, I didn't tell you so but others did.

Frankly, it feels like Mozilla are just stirring brown stuff - having got to an excellent position through excellent software, they are now resorting to lawyers' tactics instead of letting their software do the talking.

In the blog, Mitchell says "As proposed, we expect to see many people who want other browsers get lost in the process before they actually succeed in making an alternative browser their main browsing tool." Frankly, anyone who cannot negotiate a download and install is utterly unlikely to understand there are other browsers, so I can't see any of them actually wanting other browsers in the first place. So it's a non-issue.

She also says "Most important, if IE presents itself to the user as part of an automatically triggered update process, it should close immediately after the update process completes. It should not use this Windows update process as an opportunity to ask to become the default browser." Yes - but given that I've _never_ seen IE come up as part of a Windows update, I fail totally to see how this is "Most important". It's a red-herring.

For goodness sake - I want Windows 7 and its benefits.

PS - Will Google's Chrome OS be issued with no browser or with a browser ballot?

By AdrianB on 19 Aug 2009

Mozilla

Sorry Mozilla, but you're just stirring here. And I daresay it is because IE and others have noticeably caught up with Firefox's lead, which is no longer so obvious.

Microsoft's proposals are fair, and to be honest it would be fair enough for them to include Internet Explorer anyway - why should they not include a tool to browse the internet when the line between local PC and internet is now so fuzzy?

By halsteadk on 19 Aug 2009

Talk about ungrateful, MS are offering Mozilla extra market share on a plate and they're still whinging!! (They're only a Google puppet in anycase, totally dependant on search royalties).

By rjp2000 on 19 Aug 2009

Crazy

If they carry on like this I will just buy windows 7 from the USA, I WANT IE8 installed, MS have put forward a solution that should please most people, if Mozilla don't like it they should write an OS as good as Windows 7 and include FF

By Steve9800 on 19 Aug 2009

Seems to me that Moz are simply generating negative publicity. Perhaps MS are quite happy with this situation as it gives the impression, and maybe rightly so, that they are being unfairly punished while Moz continues to stick the knife in. I don't use IE, but I have noticed huge improvements in it since version 7 came out. I do use FF, but that's a bit misleading because I actually use it for the add-ons and not so much for the browsing (if that makes sense). Opera is my choice because of the excellent mail and RSS implementation and a Ballot is unlikely to change that.

By onegin101 on 19 Aug 2009

browser wars and windows 7 with ie8

what's all the fuss. ie8 s bundles with w7 rc which we all have. I like and want ie8. i also use firefox 3.5. why don't you conduct a ballot and see what result you get. i'm sure it will be overwhelmingly in favour of keeping ie8. It's another case of the politicians going against what pweople really want.
djj

By jenkinsdjj on 20 Aug 2009

Ballot Redundant

Assuming this is a fresh install and not a upgrade which renders the ballot pointless!...
In order to select and download the desired browser, does MS not have to install a browser anyway? So MS would install IE first then attempt to install another - assuming that there are no problems with network connections or hardware drivers or the links being out of date?

Why not simply provide two installation processes e.g. A Browser Free windows 7 DVD and a Browser installation CD or discrete installation processes on a memory stick. The browser installation might not include the latest version of a browser but might include a separate installation process provided by the respect browser companies to check and download the latest version if possible and install the one provided if there are any issues.

I'm curious is windows 7 faster without IE installed?

By j_woolliscroft on 20 Aug 2009

Ballot Redundant part2

Does the Ballot remove IE from PC's after installing the chosen Browser whether an upgrade or a clean install?

By j_woolliscroft on 20 Aug 2009

PETTY

I think Mozilla are being very petty and childish and i use FireFox. I teach the Internet in the local library so for many its the first browser they use. Many go on and get their own computer. Unless some has explained the new screen offering a selection of browsers and download links. Their most likely to either skip it or get totally confused and end up with no browser and not get on the internet.My experience with the it folk in my library suggest to me they may well come in the future set things up and forget to install a browser and we wait ages for them to come back. Im still waiting to for media player to be3 set up correctly 18 months after the machines were set up.

By IMACOMPUTERBUDD1 on 20 Aug 2009

PCPro readers massacre Mozilla browser ballot response

Memo to editors - the above might be a better heading!

By AdrianB on 20 Aug 2009

Is it just me or is this getting silly?

I think Microsoft should put in a compulsory IQ test as part of the OOBE experience. The IQ test should consist of questions testing your reasoning based on your knowledge of Maori traditions & the mating habits of cicadas. Depending on your score you should be assigned a browser (the highest scores get IE8, the lowest scores get IE8, the ones in between get IE8).

Is it just me or is this whole thing getting a bit ridiculous? Does the EU (or anyone else) really believe that all of this toing and froing is actually having a dramatic positive impact on the lives of poor innocent consumers who have heretofore been subjected to browser tyranny by the evil corporation?

Seriously, Microsoft make an OS. They should choose what they want in it.

Ford make cars, why don't the EU force them to offer a choice of different manufacturer's steering wheels when you take delivery?

Can you imagine buying a car and then being told that you have to pick a steering wheel out of seven choices? Because obviously greater choice is a good thing. Each type of wheel has advantages and disadvantages, but 99% of buyers won't have a clue what they are. Some steering wheels will work well on rainy days and some will work well only on country roads, but unless you're a mechanic or engineer you don't know which one is which. You then have to install the steering wheel yourself - because that is what real choice is about, right? And of course the best bit is that you can't actually drive the car until you've made your choices and installed it. And to top it all off you've had to pay for the cost of including all those steering wheel options in your car.

Consumers are buying a Microsoft OS voluntarily. If they don't like it, they shouldn't buy it. Or, buy it and then tweak it to suit them. It takes about 5 minutes to download and install Chrome on a PC these days, and it was the first thing I did on this computer - actually it was the second, the first was to install AV. I then proceed to forget that IE exists, except for use with those sites whose developers have decided to only cater to IE (as is their prerogative). I already have the choice to download and install whatever browser I want - why should we end up paying for this sh**storm (where do you think the money comes from to pay all of Microsoft's lawyers, PR folks, corp comms folks, developers etc etc) that the EU and it's cohorts are stirring up?

If it wasn't going to cost me more money (taxpayer money this time) for wrongful dismissal lawsuits, commissions & investigatory committees, I'd suggest that someone sack the lot of bright sparks who decided that this whole thing was an idea worth pursuing. And while we're at it, let's investigate Mozilla, Google, the FSF, GNU, i4i and every other FOSS vendor and "related party" for collusion & conspiracy to commit fraud.

Looks like I'm stuffed either way.

By budchawla on 20 Aug 2009

The Bottom Line...

These days any operating system without a web browser is simply an incomplete package. And yes, I use (and much prefer) Firefox...

By rgmfrance on 20 Aug 2009

I wonder how this will work with preinstalled systems from the various vendors. Are people going to have to make a preference before they purchase their computer?!

By scgill on 20 Aug 2009

Looking forward

If the move towards web-based applications gathers momentum, people are going to need a browser from the first time they switch on their new machine. IE gives that. Why the EU cannot understand that a browser is effectively part of an OS is beyond me. No-one needs to be tech savvy to find another browser - my kids all learned that by the age of fourteen, from IT classes. And they tell all their buddies, etc etc. MS wont win this "browser war", but they wont lose it either; they may just lose IE-user market share and that's not going to affect Windows sales.

By rehaylock on 20 Aug 2009

Looking forward

If the move towards web-based applications gathers momentum, people are going to need a browser from the first time they switch on their new machine. IE gives that. Why the EU cannot understand that a browser is effectively part of an OS is beyond me. No-one needs to be tech savvy to find another browser - my kids all learned that by the age of fourteen, from IT classes. And they tell all their buddies, etc etc. MS wont win this "browser war", but they wont lose it either; they may just lose IE-user market share and that's not going to affect Windows sales.

By rehaylock on 20 Aug 2009

Think about it

"Windows 7 is Microsoft's product, they should be able to put whatever they want on it like every other company in the world does, including Apple and Linux."

Microsoft can't be governed by the same rules as Apple- the simple fact is that the Mac market share is small, and having a browser ballot on Macs will make very little difference. Even if every Mac user purely used Safari (which, of course, they don't) they wouldn't make a huge dent in the browser margin stakes.
Linux can't really be considered either- it simply isn't "owned" in the same way Windows and OS X are.
Maybe in the future the EU should target Apple, and maybe they will, but right now there is no sense in going for such a small player. If you want to give other browsers a better chance, Windows is the only logical option.

By Kid_Spock on 20 Aug 2009

"Microsoft can't be governed by the same rules as Apple"
Sorry - but they have to be. Everyone has to be governed by the same rules. If oligarchs have to be submitted to the same laws as everyone, so should the small people.
Doesn't mean you don't have a cut-off below which action need not apply for practical reasons but the rules should be the same.

By AdrianB on 20 Aug 2009

The whole thing really is ridiculous - it is like claiming Waddington's have a monopoly on dice for board games and ordering them to stop including them with, well, Monopoly.

By simbr on 20 Aug 2009

Windows update and IE

I see that the theme of this thread is bash Mozilla. It's nice that so many people in here love IE8 and are drooling over Win7, but to burst a few peoples bubbles IE8 is always in windows update to us that don't have it on their machines because it is frankly a crap browser. I prefer to keep IE7 and no matter how many times I say no thanks I keep getting it.

By derekd5 on 20 Aug 2009

How many stooges?

Just how many stooges are there in here?

These comments do not cover public opinion in the slightest.

So how many Microsoft employees and people paid by PR firms employed by Microsoft are commenting here?

I for one, do not live in the EU, and I intend purchasing the EU version of W7 if is is completely free of IE. I like a light OS. If I do not get the option of purchasing an EU version with no IE, I will not be buying W7 at all.

By humpybunny on 21 Aug 2009

Mozilla massacres Microsoft's browser ballot proposal

For Derekd5.
You can choose not to install any updates from Windows Update. If you don't want windows to offer IE8 again you can right click on the update and choose 'Hide Update' then it will not be offered again.
Although why you think IE7 is better is beyond me.

By curiousclive on 21 Aug 2009

Mozilla massacres Microsoft's browser ballot proposal

For Humpybunny,
Its notpossible according to the EU for you to have a choice, you must buy Win7.
This is what is claimed that we don't have any choice in whose OS we buy, and there you go choosing not to buy Win 7. Whatever next :)

By curiousclive on 21 Aug 2009

Mozilla massacres Microsoft's browser ballot proposal

All MS needs to do to satisfy the complainers is to allow IE to be easily uninstalled without problems if people want to save disk space.

By curiousclive on 21 Aug 2009

Mozilla massacres Microsoft's browser ballot proposal

I am about to buy a new Ford Focus, but I am going to ask tthem if I can have a BMW engine in it for no extra cost. Should have no problems with that, should I?

By curiousclive on 21 Aug 2009

"I am about to buy a new Ford Focus, but I am going to ask tthem if I can have a BMW engine in it for no extra cost. Should have no problems with that, should I?"

That's surely more equivalent to requesting Windows running on a Linux kernel.

By Kid_Spock on 22 Aug 2009

"I am about to buy a new Ford Focus, but I am going to ask tthem if I can have a BMW engine in it for no extra cost. Should have no problems with that, should I?"

That's surely more equivalent to requesting Windows running on a Linux kernel.

By Kid_Spock on 22 Aug 2009