Comments on: Microsoft, Windows 7, the EU and common sense http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/ Blogging in the real world Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:02:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Steve Cassidy http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-97501 Steve Cassidy Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:54:33 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-97501 I'm with Andy on this one. The lawsuit isn't about the browser on the PC, it's about how Microsoft twist the arms of site developers to stay inside the Microsoft delivery platform. The end-user browser is only part of that picture, though it's an important part. The EU is doing this for some reasons that seem highly relevant once you escape the english-speaking world and the english-speaking mindset: and Apple aren't being sued like this because Safari (and Camino and all the others) were never sold or downloaded as exclusionary upgrades because otherwise you'd not be able to see the Apple website, or similar. Some of the ideas here about what the EU does, or whose the nastier competitor are simply bizarre. I’m with Andy on this one. The lawsuit isn’t about the browser on the PC, it’s about how Microsoft twist the arms of site developers to stay inside the Microsoft delivery platform. The end-user browser is only part of that picture, though it’s an important part. The EU is doing this for some reasons that seem highly relevant once you escape the english-speaking world and the english-speaking mindset: and Apple aren’t being sued like this because Safari (and Camino and all the others) were never sold or downloaded as exclusionary upgrades because otherwise you’d not be able to see the Apple website, or similar.

Some of the ideas here about what the EU does, or whose the nastier competitor are simply bizarre.

]]> By: Dai http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-97435 Dai Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:07:43 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-97435 @Andy - "ensure fair competition"? What, the amazing competition between any number of free items? Giving something away for free ISN'T competition if everyone is doing it (unless you count spending lots of money giving stuff away for free as a competition) If you went to car dealerships and they said "I'll give you any car in the world that you want for free" you wouldn't sue Ford for giving away a car for free, just because they are the market leader. Unfair competition would be if MS were heavily subsidising IE so that it only cost £5, whereas every other browser cost £50. Or if IE was bundled for free and you couldn't install and use any other browser. Much more anti-competitive is the PC manufacturers who bundle in anti-virus programs that expire after a month and you have to pay to use. There's only the oone preinstalled and you get no choices screen. True you could always install another one but that wouldn't be fair now would it? Mind you I still think that if Microsoft were French and not American, that the EU would have left them well alone. @Andy – “ensure fair competition”? What, the amazing competition between any number of free items? Giving something away for free ISN’T competition if everyone is doing it (unless you count spending lots of money giving stuff away for free as a competition)

If you went to car dealerships and they said “I’ll give you any car in the world that you want for free” you wouldn’t sue Ford for giving away a car for free, just because they are the market leader.

Unfair competition would be if MS were heavily subsidising IE so that it only cost £5, whereas every other browser cost £50. Or if IE was bundled for free and you couldn’t install and use any other browser.

Much more anti-competitive is the PC manufacturers who bundle in anti-virus programs that expire after a month and you have to pay to use. There’s only the oone preinstalled and you get no choices screen. True you could always install another one but that wouldn’t be fair now would it?

Mind you I still think that if Microsoft were French and not American, that the EU would have left them well alone.

]]> By: Andy http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-97228 Andy Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:02:34 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-97228 What a bizarre set of comments. I'm glad my taxes are going towards paying the EU to ensure fair competition, I'm not sure people complaining about it really understand what they are talking about. Any by the venom and ignorance (see very first post for a great example) you would have thought that the EU had asked MS to remove all browser supoprt utterly from the OS, rather than - oh deary deary me - click on an option during install. What a bizarre set of comments. I’m glad my taxes are going towards paying the EU to ensure fair competition, I’m not sure people complaining about it really understand what they are talking about. Any by the venom and ignorance (see very first post for a great example) you would have thought that the EU had asked MS to remove all browser supoprt utterly from the OS, rather than – oh deary deary me – click on an option during install.

]]> By: Mighty Boosh http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-97126 Mighty Boosh Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:33:28 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-97126 I wish that Microsoft hadn't caved, a ballot screen is not needed. What do less tech-savvy people do if they decide they've made the wrong choice? What information is given about each browser on the ballot screen? You can't make a choice without information. On the subject of IE vs other browsers, I for one am thankful Microsoft killed Netscape. Does anyone remember using it? It was terrible. IE was a breath of fresh air. I'll stick with IE because I don't want to be associated with those who preach Firefox. I wish that Microsoft hadn’t caved, a ballot screen is not needed. What do less tech-savvy people do if they decide they’ve made the wrong choice? What information is given about each browser on the ballot screen? You can’t make a choice without information.

On the subject of IE vs other browsers, I for one am thankful Microsoft killed Netscape. Does anyone remember using it? It was terrible. IE was a breath of fresh air. I’ll stick with IE because I don’t want to be associated with those who preach Firefox.

]]> By: Mr C http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-97024 Mr C Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:24:39 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-97024 @Cyril - Insert obligatory remark about Apple's share only being 10% of the home computer market so Quicktime/Safari aren't a monopoly. Then insert obligatory reply about Apple's share of the iPod market being a monopoly. @Cyril – Insert obligatory remark about Apple’s share only being 10% of the home computer market so Quicktime/Safari aren’t a monopoly.

Then insert obligatory reply about Apple’s share of the iPod market being a monopoly.

]]> By: Neal http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-97012 Neal Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:00:39 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-97012 Maybe the whole thing will be over by the time that people get ehat the complaints were about... As far as I see it, the problem is not that Microsoft included stuff when you install an operating system. The problem is that you cannot not get rid of it ifyou wanted to. If you use Windows, you haven't really got a choice but to use Internet Explorer - because it can't really be uninstalled and if you go to the Windows update site with your Firefox / Chrome / Safari / Opera / Links web browser you are told to bugger off and come back using Internet Explorer. If people are using Internet Explorer for doing one thing on the internet, they become familiar with it, and will use it for other internet stuff... There isn't really a market for web browsers any more, and hasn't been since Microsoft killed it by giving away Internet Explorer rather than selling it. (To my mind, a market is about buyingand selling, not giving away and taking for free.) The only reason that there is significant competition over which web browser people are using is that people with a grudge against Microsoft are throwing large sums of money at getting people off Internet Explorer. Maybe the whole thing will be over by the time that people get ehat the complaints were about…

As far as I see it, the problem is not that Microsoft included stuff when you install an operating system. The problem is that you cannot not get rid of it ifyou wanted to.

If you use Windows, you haven’t really got a choice but to use Internet Explorer – because it can’t really be uninstalled and if you go to the Windows update site with your Firefox / Chrome / Safari / Opera / Links web browser you are told to bugger off and come back using Internet Explorer.

If people are using Internet Explorer for doing one thing on the internet, they become familiar with it, and will use it for other internet stuff…

There isn’t really a market for web browsers any more, and hasn’t been since Microsoft killed it by giving away Internet Explorer rather than selling it. (To my mind, a market is about buyingand selling, not giving away and taking for free.)

The only reason that there is significant competition over which web browser people are using is that people with a grudge against Microsoft are throwing large sums of money at getting people off Internet Explorer.

]]> By: Cyril http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-96934 Cyril Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:23:26 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-96934 I really don't get the way some people think. MS is =arrogant= because they provide a free media player and browser. Last time I checked, OSX came with them, both authored by Apple and bundled FREE with the OS (how arrogant of them). Why isn't the EU going after them? There has never been a problem with installing someone else's browser, media player or file manager in Windows if you don't like the one that comes in the box. Consumers have ALWAYS had that choice. It was anti-competitive (somewhat) when MS gave away IE for free when Netscape was still charging money, but that was a LONG time ago. @Stack - brilliant :-D I really don’t get the way some people think. MS is =arrogant= because they provide a free media player and browser. Last time I checked, OSX came with them, both authored by Apple and bundled FREE with the OS (how arrogant of them). Why isn’t the EU going after them? There has never been a problem with installing someone else’s browser, media player or file manager in Windows if you don’t like the one that comes in the box. Consumers have ALWAYS had that choice.

It was anti-competitive (somewhat) when MS gave away IE for free when Netscape was still charging money, but that was a LONG time ago.

@Stack – brilliant :-D

]]> By: jonners99 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-96910 jonners99 Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:48:56 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-96910 Apple are so much worse at this than Microsoft I just wish someone would switch the focus. Apple are so much worse at this than Microsoft I just wish someone would switch the focus.

]]> By: Dai http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-96874 Dai Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:06:30 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-96874 How much taxpayer money has been wasted by the EU on this? You have a choice in Windows of using the free built in Internet Explorer or any of the other free downloadable browsers. Same with Media Player, use the free one or download a free one. Seriously - where's the problem? It's not like Microsoft is taking money away from other software manufacturers. Isn't it about time that Apple were sued because the only way you can sync your iPod is to use iTunes? Or how about the Linux distros that you can buy (yes, buy. Novell Suse Linux Enterprise for example) that come with applications installed including openoffice and Firefox. Surely they are becoming a monopoly too. @Stack - best post so far! How much taxpayer money has been wasted by the EU on this? You have a choice in Windows of using the free built in Internet Explorer or any of the other free downloadable browsers. Same with Media Player, use the free one or download a free one.
Seriously – where’s the problem? It’s not like Microsoft is taking money away from other software manufacturers.

Isn’t it about time that Apple were sued because the only way you can sync your iPod is to use iTunes?
Or how about the Linux distros that you can buy (yes, buy. Novell Suse Linux Enterprise for example) that come with applications installed including openoffice and Firefox. Surely they are becoming a monopoly too.

@Stack – best post so far!

]]> By: Cyteck http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/07/27/microsoft-windows-7-the-eu-and-common-sense/comment-page-1/#comment-96871 Cyteck Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:55:31 +0000 http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/?p=6466#comment-96871 Frankly, weather you decide to use IE8 or some other companies web browser in windows 7 I strongly doubt it will make much difference either way. Users will select a browser based on a wide number of variable factors. But whats 100% MOST important here is the principal of providing consumers (customers or clients) with a choice. I strongly suspect that what gets users of windows most annoyed is the sheer arrogance of Microsoft at its blatantly presumptions that everyone wants or must have IE8 rightly or wrongly. Its this assumption that really angers users in my opinion. Frankly, weather you decide to use IE8 or some other companies web browser in windows 7 I strongly doubt it will make much difference either way. Users will select a browser based on a wide number of variable factors. But whats 100% MOST important here is the principal of providing consumers (customers or clients) with a choice. I strongly suspect that what gets users of windows most annoyed is the sheer arrogance of Microsoft at its blatantly presumptions that everyone wants or must have IE8 rightly or wrongly. Its this assumption that really angers users in my opinion.

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